What is it like to ghost David Beckham? Or publish a book in lockdown? Is it true that the world's best footballers have gone vegan? We catch up with renowned sports journalist Leo Moynihan, who remembers sitting in smoked filled press rooms in his youth, as his father documented a world before the Premier League existed. We also discuss the effectiveness of Black Lives Matter and reflect on football's response to the pandemic. He tells us about his favourite articles, writers and shares some interesting memories - including what it was like to get emotional with England's Terry Butcher, and going to dinner with legendary commentator John Motson.
Episode chapters
1min - Publishing a book and interviewing in lockdown.
2mins30s - The centre half and their quirks.
4mins30s - Twin loves of football and journalism - keeping it in the family.
6mins30s - Ghosting David Beckham
10mins30s - Gaining respect as a writer and breakthrough moments.
13mins - Premier League football and the response to the pandemic.
18mins - Black Lives Matter in football, is it effective?
21mins30s - What will life be like for football fans in the future?
23mins - Writing I'm most proud of, and the magic of the FA Cup.
28mins30s - Greatest ever moments in football.
32mins - Favourite career interviews.
35mins - Vegan dinners of choice for Premier League footballers?
35mins45s - Writers I enjoy reading.
38mins30s - Stories of Scotland's Gordon Strachan.
40mins30s - Projects in the pipeline and hopes for the future?
42mins30s - Predictions for the remainder of the season: who will win the biggest prizes?
Hi, my name is Sam Bleazard - welcome to Comms from the Shed, the interview show where you get to hear from a range of diverse and interesting voices on how they've coped during the global pandemic. In this series will be taking an informal look at life, talking to people who've been doing incredible things and asking them about their hopes for the future in both their personal and professional lives. Hope you enjoy it.
Today we welcome journalist and author Leo Moynihan, who has been a sportswriter for 21 years. He's written for FourFourTwo magazine, The Sunday Telegraph, The Times, ES magazine and Esquire, amongst others. His books include Three Kings: The Makers of Modern Football, which was shortlisted for the British Sports Book Awards Football Book of the Year. His latest book, Thou Shall Not Pass: The Anatomy of a Football Centre Half, has just been published by Bloomsbury and is out now. Leo Moynihan, welcome to Comms from the Shed.
Hi Sam, thanks for having me in your shed.
At one point, I did entertain the notion of having a big, flat screen in here for a major summer football tournament, but we'll see how that pans out.
You gotta do it.
I know that you're probably writing all the time, but what were the challenges of publishing a book in lockdown? And in some ways, was that actually an advantage?
You know, most writers lives are sitting in their sheds, like you are, or their living rooms. I've been doing that for 20 years. So a lot of people were ringing me for advice when all this started. But I've got to say it sort of changed my work and my motivation, knowing that everyone else was at home. It definitely changed how I went about my business. And what I love doing is going to meet people and trying to, whenever you can, sit with people and talk face to face, as you always get a much better interview than anything on the phone. And suddenly this thing called Zoom was proposed, which I guess has been around for a while. But I'd never heard of it, and I started doing interviews on Zoom, which is very odd, especially as you're interviwing quite famous footballers and they're standing in their beautiful kitchens, making vegan dinners while you talk to them. So it kind of sent everything a bit topsy turvy, but we'll get on with it. And as I say, writers really shouldn't complain. But we do.
Thanks for your thoughts there on lockdown publishing Leo. My next question is related to the book. Why are centre halves so misunderstood in the world of football? And what have you learned about people that play in that position?
I think depending on where you are in the world of football, centre halves are either lorded or, as you say, misunderstood and slightly caricatured. I think the centre half is seen as this sort of caricature. The big guy with the broken nose who plays the game facing the game, very square onto the action, and his job or her job is very much the bruiser. I spoke to foreign centre-halves who played their games successfully abroad, in either Germany, France, Holland, South America or Spain - and then they'd come to England. The first thing they do is maybe make a tackle and the ball would go out for throw-in and to their bemusement there'd be a loud cheer from the crowd. Our football culture, it's coming out of it I think, but we do live in a time-warp. We have lived in a time where the big tackle, the big header away is celebrated, whilst the players that do it are slightly frowned upon, so there's a bit of a snobbery around them. It was fascinating for me, having played in the position at amateur level myself, to get more into it and I actually - based on the second part of your question - found that there is a sort of caricature, a character assessment of all these guys that are similar. You know the British centre halves I spoke to, they do all agree that they are quite organized. They are quite like that in their home lives, as even there they like to structure things. So I think we're looking at at sports people that want this in their lives. They want to sort of carry a high line and maybe, you know, play life's problems offside.
That makes sense. No, it absolutely does. Thank you for that. That's given us a bit of a rare insight into one of the the less glamorous positions on the football field. Can I just ask you, where did your twin loves of football and journalism come from?
I was sort of brought into it. My father was the football correspondent on The Sunday Telegraph for about 25 years from the late sixties to when Fleet Street sort of finished. He kind of finished when they moved to London's Docklands. So I was very much immersed in that world. My dad would go to a match every Saturday. There were less games midweek. Back then, on the Sunday I'd see him, and get the program from the match, where all his little penned writings were in the pages. It was the good old days because when I got a little bit older Dad would actually sit me on his lap in press boxes while he had a typewriter. I sort of grew up around his ilk, and you know, some of his best friends, great writers like Frank Keating. It was very close to me. And to listen to them talk, it was this sort of romantic time of Fleet Street wine bars and cigar smoke, the clacking of typewriters. So my love for football certainly came from that and being taken to press boxes from the age of six I think it was. And then at school, I wasn't the most academic of kids, but I did like writing, and I guess that was always going to be the case. And, you know, I was writing match reports rather than doing homework a lot of the time. So I think, as I say, it was sort of I was gonna have to give it a go. It was one of those, and I wanted to play football like all boys did and got quite far. But then it didn't happen for me. So I went to university and did an English degree that I've never really thought about since or used. But it definitely used in terms of book writing, I think my degree got me used to sitting down and writing longer pieces, the discipline of doing that. And so, yeah, I'm an apple that didn't fall far from the tree.
Learning more about you preparing for this interview - I see that you've written lots of articles and lots of books. I can't not ask you about something that's mentioned in your biography, which is your ghosting project with David Beckham.
Yeah. So that was around 2006 - I won't say David, because we're not sort of on first name terms, but Mr Beckham was playing for Real Madrid at the time, so I I was approached. I'd written a book on Gordon Strachan - I didn't ghost it, but I wrote a biography of Gordon who was quite a cult figure at the time. A fellow countryman of yours of course. And then that did quite well and went down quite well. And so I got a call from HarperCollins, who got in touch with me, saying that they were looking to do a new book with Beckham for sort of a younger audience. David Beckham was opening a new football academy in Greenwich. I don't know if you remember him doing that, there were these two huge football pitches, but it was gonna be open to schools, and there was going to be teaching facilities in it as well as obviously, on the physical side of things. So with HarperCollins he wanted to do a kind of coaching manual, but also a biographical thing about how he made his dreams come true. That sort of thing. It was all very uplifting stuff. And so they asked me to do a treatment for it, and a pitch for the book, which I did, and I got the job. I mean this was at the time he was still playing. He was probably the most famous British guy around at the time. So I went to meet him for the first time. He was six hours late, but his private jet had problems. So we all know how that feels. So that was fine. And we kind of got chatting. Actually, at first I made a little joke about his age because I'm actually a year older than he is, and I went to the same soccer school as him, Bobby Charlton's soccer school - when we were teenagers. And I remember hearing about this great kid who Manchester United were gonna sign. So I thought that was a great icebreaker, and when he asked me my age, I made the mistake of saying you wouldn't know it to look at me, but I'm older than you - and it didn't go down too well. Actually, I thought I'd lost the gig, but we we persevered and brought it round and he and I worked together. So that was my first steps into ghosting. I'd obviously written articles for magazines in the first person, which is sort of similar, but I had to convince HarperCollins and David Beckham's people. There were quite a lot of his people that I would need quite a lot of time with him to do a book which was like breaking down barriers. But we got there in the end and I was flown to Madrid and I'd have day trips to Madrid to do a sort of two hour interview with him, and he was very pleasant. It was talking about his childhood and his passion for football, which really came across. I think at the time I said it was like dealing with the president of the United States trying to work with David Beckham, but actually once you got him on his own - well actually he was never on his own, because there was always some PR person with a BlackBerry typing away next to him - but once you got him chatting about his clear passion for football and making it in football it was good. Everyone I've spoken to since who played with David Beckham talks of his incredible work rate, and it really came across speaking to him about about it. So it was a fascinating, enjoyable, and sometimes infuriating project that one.
It sounds fascinating. Thanks for sharing your memories of that. If people wanted to get a hold of that book, because I'm sure there'll be a renewed interest, what's that book called, and is it still available?
Well, that's a good question. It was called Making It Real. HarperCollins Making It Real by David Beckham, I think they changed the name of it in reprint, and I think it was called something else. It's awful but I don't remember. That's what us Ghost writer do, we move on. But I'd be interested to see if it's still on Amazon or any other bookseller. In fact if any of your listeners find it, let me know.
I want to ask you, because you have some fantastic quotes from footballers and journalists alike on the cover of your latest book. How hard is it to gain respect as a writer in these kind of environments? And what would you say was your breakthrough?
Well, having got my chance at FourFourTwo magazine, where I went as an intern, actually, they used to do month long internships for work experience, basically where you would do you do the menial stuff. Cut out cuttings from the day's papers, make the tea, often be told to go and get bacon sandwiches for everyone, which was fine. I'd come into a little bit older, so I was about the same age as the editor. But you know, you swallow your pride and you do it. And actually, six months later I was still there because I just thought no one's asked me to leave, so I'll just hang about. So that got me in. And it was Haymarket publishing, so they were doing other football magazines too. So I sort of got to know people there very well, and I slowly became a freelancer without really thinking about it. So alongside the interviews I was getting, I had gained contacts in the game because of my dad too, which helped with journalists and I got more and more sort of players and managers and coaches to know me. But I guess my big break was that Gordon Strachan book in terms of publishing. Also Gordon liked it, which helped, and I got to know Gordon better. I also did a column for him for a while FourFourTwo and that sort of snowballed. And then the Strachan book was nominated for best new writer in the British Sports Book Awards. So that was good recognition. And I guess you just end up knowing people. In terms of the quotes in my book, a lot of the people who have been quoted, helped me with the book. So you've already got that connection with them. I'd interviewed them all. I think they kind of sense that I half knew what was talking about. So you already have that relationship with people and you kind of know who to cold call and say, look can you just do me a favour and give me a quote for the blurb, as we call it. And yeah, you call in some favors. Some of them could call me for favours, but I doubt any of them need need me to.
The Premier League is one of the most glamorous products because it's become an entertainment product in recent years. It's a global business. Whatever way we look at it. I just wondered, given your extensive knowledge of football at the highest level, what's your view on the Premier League's response to the global pandemic initially? Because it felt to me from reading a lot of sports columnists that there were quite a few missteps at the beginning. I just wondered how you felt they'd responded and and actually, did they learn a lot of lessons from this experience?
I don't know if I fully agree that there were missteps. I mean, looking back - a year ago this week we were all in such a state of flux. We didn't know what was happening or what was coming. Football closed down quite quickly. I think football should have closed quicker. The Champions League, UEFA, probably had a bit to answer for their response. I think the game that stands out is the Liverpool versus Athletico Madrid game because Spain was on lockdown and this, I think, goes beyond football. I think it's more the politics of it that the authorities allowed 4000 Madrid fans who weren't allowed out in their own city to come to Liverpool. The data showed that there was a big spike in Liverpool due to that. In terms of the Premier League as an organisation, I think I'd have to read up more about it. But if my memory serves me right they did what they had to do and the players weren't given any special treatment. Social media was full of videos of players training from home on zoom all together. You know when we're talking the elite clubs, everything was shut down and then once they started the project, you know they took their time. Let's not forget there were lots of people calling for this the whole season to be null and void. I think of Karen Brady at West Ham using her column in The Sun newspaper in a piece about how football didn't matter, given the deaths, and let's stop it now. The agendas on show there were quite frightening because West Ham were in the relegation zone at the time. Now they're up near the Champions League places and people were dying over Christmas, but she was conspicuously silent on the matter. So I think the Premier League didn't listen to outside voices. I think they kept their noses clean and waited. And whilst we can criticize the Premier League juggernaut, I don't see what else they could have done really. I mean, you might remind me, Sam, what people felt were the missteps?
Well, I'm just thinking of clubs that were perceived to be taken advantage of the furlough scheme. I mean, that would be one example. I think a lot of clubs that were initially criticised for such things ended up doing a lot of great work in their local communities supporting the NHS, and donating funds and obviously footballers themselves got together. I think the captains of the Premier League got together to do a lot of very worthwhile work. My own reflection on it, as somebody interested in the game, is that there was good and bad on balance. There was probably more good than bad, but I think the initial reaction heated up the press columns.
Absolutely, the furlough thing did leave a nasty taste in the mouth. People weren't really used to it, because it was so new wasn't it, furloughs and all the talk around them was just something new within the game. What I think it did do was shine a light on some preconceptions of football and those who play it. I think the easy route and the route taken by Cabinet ministers... - for example let's not forget the health minister Matt Hancock who went for football, probably thinking it was an easy target because the perception these days is that footballers don't care and they are paid far too much. But it really backfired on him, because knowing footballers from having worked with them, they do far more good than bad. There's lots of young young men earning far too much money, but the vast majority of them give back and do loads of stuff that isn't acknowledged and they don't want publicity for it. Now let's take Matt Hancock's statement about footballers not caring. Jordan Henderson, as you say, led the team club captains push to give to the NHS and didn't want that known about. I know Jordan's agent quite well, and he didn't want publicity for that. He wanted it to be a private, quiet thing, but I think it was quite right. It did come out that he, and then later Marcus Rashford did great work, which sent the government's words packing in a way, because if anything, footballers and football has come out of this with its reputation enhanced. While the government probably hasn't really.
Interesting to hear your views on that Leo, as somebody that knows a lot of the people in football away from the public public perception and the image of football itself. I just wondered, as you mentioned Marcus Rashford there, who's been very vocal on a whole range of subjects. In terms of the black lives matter movement in football - what's your view on that? Do you think that's been effective? There seems to be a lot of debate now about whether it should carry on. I think some feel, ironically, that it's been politicized. I don't see it as a political initiative at all, although some people clearly do. But do you think it's an effective thing that is taken notice of? Given as well, the continued abuse of black players on social media.
I think it's multifaceted and tricky for for a lot of people to talk about. The fact that it's been debated, now that's a good thing. That has to be the start, doesn't it? It was debated further after last summer following the George Floyd killing, and the protest did have a good place in the game. I think it's good that this is on the agenda and being talked about. But we have to listen to those people that are most affected by this. So whilst the gesture has had a light shone on it, I listen to people like Les Ferdinand, the director of football at QPR, who is very vocal on this and was actually telling his players they could do what they want. As a club they didn't support it. He was sick of gestures. I think that's the problem we have with this. At the moment it's always gestures. It's a kick it out or wear a T-shirt twice a season, have a day, you know, when The Premier League says it's ok. Like Black History Month where, yes, it does feel like a gesture sometimes, and what they need is actions. They need people involved in the hierarchy of the game who have experience of this, who don't want just a talking shop. So I think whilst the black lives matter and taking the knee has generated a conversation it now has to be the start of something and if it finished next week, I think that would be okay. But as long as actions follow on behind it, I think the taking the knee has started something, but let's not let it be the thing football does because more and more black footballers are certainly saying they're not going to do it. Wilfried Zaha at Crystal Palace has given his very articulate reasons why he will stop now. The players affected are still getting abuse. While I take a knee, you know, let it play out - but let there be actions now because this just has to be the start and football has a role to play in getting rid of this in society. It can't just be held up as the thing to get rid of it. It has to play a role.
No, absolutely. I couldn't agree more with you. I must ask you, we talked about the pandemic and its impact on football and how football has carried on. I think it's probably fair to say that you have a fondness for Liverpool FC. I hope I've not got that wrong. I'm just picking that up from the books that you've published in the past. If any club feels the benefit of having fans it's certainly Liverpool, or one of the clubs that are able to generate incredible atmospheres. You mentioned Crystal Palace there as well of course. What changes do you think fans will be subject to in the future? Are you getting any sense of what life will be like for a football fan in the future? I mean, clearly, football has missed fans. It's not been the same game. The atmosphere has been different. But what? What are you hearing either from authorities in the game or players about what the experience will be like if we ever actually do get supporters back into stadiums?
Well I'm hearing more from match going supporters really, and fan groups, and it's quite a pessimistic hypothesis, that things will not be normal for quite a long time now. Like everything I think the authorities want to spin it. Put a brave face on it that this June date and the Euros this summer will get fans in. You know a lot of fans I speak to, and I go a lot myself, say that a half empty ground is only just as good as an empty one, and without that full contact, how do we move forward? You know it's not going to be the same for a little while and it makes one sad, doesn't it? To think that football stadiums are going to be these sort of half-full venues, and that moment you score a goal, and, you know, finding yourself in an embrace with a stranger could be a thing of the past. Because where do we go from there? It takes away the fun of it. I mean VAR is doing its best to take away that spontaneous pleasure anyway. But what with Covid on top and the idea that maybe people would sit apart, and it would be a third full, or a quarter full, or even half full still feels really sad. So I don't know if we're looking at two or three years of this. Who knows? That's for others to say, but that's what I'm hearing - not very optimistic noises really.
Interesting to hear that note of realism in your your answer, and your very considered sort of response - so thank you for that. I wanted to move on to a slightly more positive and upbeat note, which is, I wondered if you had a favourite column or an article that you had written? Either because you felt it was a good piece of writing on football or sport, but also because of the reaction you got to it. Do you have any pieces from your career that you're particularly fond of on that basis?
You know as you're asking, the one that sprang into my mind, and I might change my mind later, but one that sprang into my mind was a piece I did for FourFourTwo magazine about nearly 10 years ago. I can tell you when it was because it was to mark an anniversary. It was 2012 and it was to mark the anniversary of the very famous giant killing game when Hereford United beat Newcastle United in the FA Cup. Now Hereford were a Southern League team, so it was non league vs the Mighty Newcastle, with the likes of Malcolm Super Mac McDonald up front with his big sideburns. They were a big first division club who reached the cup final two years later, but they went to Hereford....actually Hereford went to Newcastle and got a very credible draw, and took them back to Hereford and beat them 2-1. And there's the famous goal by Ronnie Radford, the 40-yard screamer into the top corner. The pitch invasion that followed is like a 1970s fashion statement, because everyone's got those Parka jackets with furry hoods, all these kids with long hair and flared jeans running on to the pitch. I got I to go up to Hereford and actually became very close to a lot of the players and the the manager, and I even met the Board. There's a guy on the Hereford Board who was actually a Bobby on the beat, he was one of two policemen that day, and his job was to try and stop the pitch invasion. But being a huge Hereford fan he just thought, if you can't beat them, join them, and came running on himself. So it was a sort of history of that occasion. I spoke to Malcolm MacDonald, who gave me the Newcastle point of view, and it was such an emotive and evocative time, it's an iconic match. Whenever the FA Cup starts you'll see clips from that goal on football focus and match of the day. It was actually the game that John Motson got his big break on. He was just a a young commentator coming out of radio onto TV, and they gave him this game that they presumed would be not really shown, but because of the magnitude of the result, he got the main game on TV that day. I think it was probably the only game that was on that day anyway, but it was his game, and from there his career took off. He calls it the day he got his break, and I spoke to John about it, and I just remember loving how innocent and real it was. I'm not one to say modern football is this awful thing because we all still love it, and I certainly love it, and of course there's far too much money in it - but that's the way people want to do it. They want to watch on TV, so that brings in the money. But going back to your question, yeah, that piece and the people I met and just how friendly they ended up being...inviting me to the anniversary banquet at Hereford, which was wonderful. I went with John Motson and that really brings back great memories. My father had just died as well, not long before I went there and wrote it. A lot of the guys remembered my dad, so I think that kind of was quite moving on a personal note to me, and I just remember really enjoying doing it and and the response in the magazine, who loved it. And hopefully some of the readers did too.
It's very heartening to hear that even you grizzly, cynical old journalists who've been writing about this game for years still feel that, or you still have that memory of the innocence and the romance of football. When you first came into contact with it, I mean. Certainly I'm a bit of a football romantic myself. My earliest memories of football are probably, as a seven year old, probably showing my age here, of the 1982 World Cup - the Zico, Socrates, Oscar, Eder vintage of Brazil playing just fantastic football and actually being knocked out by the Italian system of Zoff and Paolo Rossi. I also have quite funny memories of football. You mentioned John Motson there and I think he really used to come out with some absolute gems. I know obviously we talked about Liverpool there, but his soundbite of 'the crazy gang have beaten the Culture Club' on the full time whistle of an FA Cup final was a particular moment of genius. The other thing that sticks in my mind in terms of headlines around football or hooks. I remember there was a year, I think this is going back about 20 years ago, but Inverness Caledonian Thistle once created a shock in the Scottish Cup by knocking Celtic out. And I think the headline in the Sun newspaper was: Super Calley go ballistic Celtic are atrocious. I imagine the hilarity in the newsroom at the time when somebody came up with that, because it ended up taking up most of the back page of the Sun. Do you have a favourite moment in football? I've just shared a very random hotch potch of boyhood memories and things that have amused me. Is there anything that stands in your memory as one of the greatest ever moments in football?
I don't want to repeat for your listeners, but I think that game you mentioned the Brazil of Italy game in 1982. I mean, if someone wasn't into football, a youngster wasn't into football. That spring day in 1982 with the crackly commentary coming from Spain, it wasn't even that far away but John Motson's crackly commentary? And if they weren't it was like a net being thrown over a kid wasn't it, that game? Because if you weren't into football, how could you not be after that? And I obviously was already into football, and I knew that my dad was there. He'd rung me from the press box before the game to tell me that it was so hot that day in Seville, actually I think the game was in Barcelona, wasn't it? It was so hot that his trainers had melted to the pavement, which totally through me and blew my mind. Then he said, watch this game because it's going to be a real clash of two styles, which he was right about, so knowing my dad was there and then watching it, even the colours looked different that day. The yellow and blue contrast, and a beautiful blue sky as this background and all you could hear were these drums from the Brazilian fans, which, of course we didn't hear, you know it was so new. And if I wasn't already very much into the game, I remember thinking one: why had this brilliant team lost? How is that possible? Why is that allowed? Not knowing the ins and outs of it, and how well Italy played that day, even if they were slightly cynical at times. But you had to do what you had to do against Socrates, Zico and the rest, so that was a real moment for me. And when you're that young, the fact that your dad's writing about the game. I remember going into school saying my dad was there, my dad was there and getting quite a lot of kudos at primary school for that, so that would be very much a big moment. In terms of my Liverpool supporting career, I remember them winning the double in '86. Liverpool hadn't really won the FA Cup in my time, I mean they did in '74. I was too young obviously so I didn't get a ticket. In '86 to win the FA Cup was such a big thing, as I was used to Liverpool winning leagues and European Cups. I was very spoiled obviously. But lifting the FA Cup and winning the double just seemed like such a, you know, you hear about doubles from Arsenal and Tottenham in black and white, and it was sort of this iconic thing and then for my team to do it against Everton. I remember leaving that game and thinking this is the pinnacle. Ian Rush got two goals, as we were one nil down at half time. It was looking very bad and then they took over and Rush was a big hero of mine and it just seemed perfect.
I too was sad that day when Brazil were knocked out of the World Cup, I felt very crestfallen as a boy who loved football, and I don't think I ever felt the same excitement or rush watching a Brazil team again. Obviously, there were great moments in the the following years. I wanted to ask you Leo, do you have a favourite interview either for the book you've just written or a favourite football interview just generally in your career?
Oh golly, you know I don't speak for all writers, but I'm sure some of them would agree that whilst we're all grown men with children of our own, football can make you feel like a kid again. We've alluded to it in this chat. I guess when I've sat down with say, Ian Rush, which I've done a few times, I often think - what am I doing it sitting, chatting about and just bringing up memories and getting a first-hand account of things that made me so happy as a boy? That remains special. It doesn't have to just be Liverpool players. You know I feel very privileged to sit and ask questions of the older players too. There was a lovely interview with Ian St. John, who recently died. He gave me his memories of a particular match for Liverpool in the sixties, and to watch someone who was there and who helped create the modern team that I support was very special. In terms of my new book, there's two that stand out. In the early days of the book when I was actually just pitching it to the publisher they wanted a chapter, so I got hold of Terry Butcher, who was so generous with his time, and I told him what I wanted to do. I wanted to give centre backs a sort of platform, and to shine a light on the position. And he was obviously impressed, and I think I actually made him quite emotional. I took him back to a fictitious game and said, what was it like if your team was one nil up at somewhere like Old Trafford and it was backs against the wall? 60,000 people screaming for you to fail, and he just, well I'm not gonna say he was about to cry because I don't think anyone can say that. But there was definitely emotion in his voice. He just said how much he loved those moments and he said he used to shout to his teammates, "Thou shalt not pass!". So that's when I thought, right there's my title, saw it out and then, as I say, got to interview Virgil Van Dijk for the book. I really wanted to get that into it. I interviewed a lot of players, current and former players, but to get the name that people think about today, and to get his take on the tactics of the position, how it's played in Holland, what the Premier League's like obviously and what is expected of the modern centre-half...that off really brought it together. And that was one of the zoom ones. So I clicked on and there was this colossal man cooking pasta in his very nice kitchen. We did the interview from there so that will probably stay with me, that one. But I mean so many great ones, I was very privileged to have talked to people within the game. Bobby Robson was a wonderful interview, really. What a generous, kind, knowledgeable, insightful football man - he will be one that stands out for me too, I could probably sit and something will pop into my head and I'd say that, but it's been a lot. But yeah, they're the ones that kind of come to mind now.
I was tickled by your mention of the start of the interview of the vegan dinners of choice of Premier League football. Can you give us a sample? What are the vegan dinners of choice that might be on the Premier League dinner table of an evening?
More and more of them are turning to veganism, aren't they? I don't really know the subject well enough myself. I'll tell you what I do hear they've eaten is - well if you want a pudding - a chocolate mousse which is made of avocados, there you go. That's that's a vegan staple apparently, but I'll probably just stick with the chocolate mousse I've got. I've got nothing to lose anymore.
Well, that's the kind of insight I think we can only get on the Comms from the Shed podcast frankly Leo. So thank you very much for that nugget. I'm just going to finish up with a couple of quick questions. Thank you for being so generous with your time. Who are the writers that you really respect? I mean, who do you like following? And what writers do you enjoy reading? Whose work do you tend to follow yourself?
Sam Pilger is an excellent writer. I adore everything he puts down on paper. He might be listening. So Sam, definitely Sam Pilger. You know I you can't help it I often go back to Hugh McIlvanney on football, again a fellow countryman of yours Sam, who just does paint incredible pictures. And if you delve into that book in different chapters on Football and other sports, actually his work on boxing is just amazing - it goes beyond sports writing, it transcends the genre. Patrick Barclay is another one, another Scotsman. Actually, it's quite interesting - we could have a chat solely on that. Scotland's contribution to football. It isn't just how skillful they made the game, but also how people observe the game, how skillfully they do it, and Patrick Barclay would be right up there as well. I love reading Patty's work. You know the current crop too. There's so many good ones. Henry Winter comes up often and he's very prolific and knows so much about the game. You respect what he says because he's so immersed in the game, which I really respect. I mentioned Frank Keating earlier. Hugh McIlvanney you know, and my I'm lucky enough to be able to delve into my dad's work, John Moynihan. And, you know, these were real giants of the game. I'm not sure how any of those old guys would have coped with, you know, the very quick turnaround like deadlines on match days now. You need to have your piece done probably before the end of the game just for the online content. And my father certainly would would have struggled tweeting. I think that would have baffled him. He once asked me what an email was. So I think we're looking at very different times, as these were people that would be would be in the bar as quick as they could after a game on a Saturday. I kind of envy them that I must say. I envy those smoke filled days, smoke filled room days. I guess maybe it was a bit more real, but there are many more writers now, and it's not to the games detriment. There's so much great content out there. I mean there's maybe too much of it, but you can get lost sometimes. But if you know where to look, there's still a lot of it, and and the newspaper guys are fantastic.
This may have been just towards the end of the smoke filled days, or maybe in that period between the old era of football in the more modern game. But you mentioned Gordon Strachan there. I heard a story once that Alex Ferguson followed Gordon Strachan home because he wanted to check up on him and make sure that he wasn't going to bars or clubs. And he got an incredible fright when Ferguson turned up in a bar, I think it was. Did he tell you any stories like that about Alex Ferguson? And what was the funniest story that Gordon told you about his football career because he was a proper character, obviously, for people that know about him.
Yeah, that was the reason I got the gig to write his story, because he became this sort of cult hero on Match of the Day. People would wait for his post match interviews. You know, I think the famous one was - "Can we have a quick word Gordon?" He said: "velocity", and walked away. Very, very sharp witted. I think his relationship with Fergie was always a tricky one because most people cowed down to Alex Ferguson, even in his early Aberdeen days. But Gordon was this very quick witted Edinburgh boy, who won't suffer fools. I was lucky enough to get my own Strachan put down, which I'll tell you. I finished writing about Gordon, as I say I wasn't with him but I got his blessing, and so I cracked on and wrote this book about him. I then sent a copy to Gordon having sort of got to know him a little bit. I gave it a month or two, and then we were talking about something else. I rang him up and I said, 'oh by the way Gordon, did you like my book? And he sort of tentatively said, I won't do his accent because you'll just laugh at me - but he said: 'yeah, I know'. He wasn't very forthcoming about it and I said, 'you can say if you didn't like it'. 'Um, my wife Leslie really liked it', and I said: 'Okay, that's good, but can I ask if you liked it?' And again he was a bit hesitant, so I said, 'really, I can take criticism'. He said: 'right Leo, I'm gonna come clean. I started reading it but then I realized I know the ending'. Yeah, which sort of must be weird reading someone else's book about you and you know, your own life. So that was that was my very own personal Gordon Strachan-ism, and God bless him for it.
Final question Leo. Obviously people can read your book now about centre halves, and you've given us some great insight into that, and Thou Shall Not Pass is out on Bloomsbury right now - as I mentioned at the top of the show. What projects do you have in the pipeline, or what are your hopes for the future? What more would you still like to do as a writer?
Wow, that's a million dollar question, Sam. Gosh, that's an existential question. I'm not sure I can answer...the world is changing very much for everyone. More and more I'm into publishing. I like, maybe the space that gives you. I like getting one's own ideas to publishers and trying to actually make a physical thing that goes on a bookshelf. And I love the idea of writing books. I mean I'm still ghosting. I've just done a book with Andy Cole, the Manchester United Centre forward that came out before Christmas, and that was a success. So I'm always trying to sort of daydream about my ideal ghosting project. Who knows what's around the corner? I'm looking at maybe some kids books with a football theme, so a bit of nonfiction you know, we all think we've got a novel in us, but maybe some story for younger children but using football as the hook. I mean, I've got a daughter who's 13. She likes to read, but she's not a football fan. But I know lots of lots of parents whose kids find it hard to find something to read. But if you can get the thing they love within the book eg. football, then who knows? So you know, that's something I'm working on. So watch this space. I'll let you all know.
That sounds great. And what are your predictions for all the big trophies before the end of the year, both domestically and internationally. Who do you see winning the big prizes in the weeks and months ahead?
Well, it looks obvious that Liverpool are gonna let Manchester City have the Premier League on loan for a year. So that's that done. I think the talk of the quadruple is is an interesting one, because this team do look like a machine, don't they? But my prediction is that I think City will win a treble. I think they'll win everything, But you know what I think? For some reason, Tottenham will beat them in the League Cup final. I've got this feeling that Jose Mourinho has been under the cosh. Everyone is going after Mourinho so he's going to come out with something, some sort of trick. They're going to defend very well that day at Wembley. Whenever it is, you can tell me. I don't know when that game is actually. Then with that front three including Bale and Kane, might just hit them, and that could be the one they lose. So there you go. You heard it here first folks.
'On that bombshell!', as a famous comedic character once said. Leo, thanks very much, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. We we ventured into areas I didn't think we would, but it was all the better for it. So thank you so much for your time. And please keep checking back on future episodes from Comms from the Shed. Thanks so much.
Thanks.
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